Monday, March 10, 2008

DEBATE W/EASTERN ORTHODOX PART 7: JOSH BRISBY'S CLOSING STATEMENT

I will now make my closing statement. First of all, I wish to thank Jay Dyer for his participation in this debate. I appreciate him being willing to do this, and for his cordiality both on my blog and over the phone. Although sadly we cannot consider each other brothers, I certainly do consider him a friend. Jay, if you’re ever in town, stop on by my crib and I’ll show you my hood. We’ll have some sushi and some Asahi!

Now, I opened this debate defending Reformed Baptist Christianity. The ironic thing is that during the course of this debate, I have become a Reformed paedobaptist. I am no longer a Baptist. However, since there are extensive similarities between the Reformed credobaptist view of Reformed theology and the Reformed paedobaptist view of Reformed theology, I do not feel compelled to hash those out in my closing statement. Instead, since I opened by defending Reformed theology, I will now close by mentioning why I am not Eastern Orthodox, and I will also interact with Jay’s presentations here in our debate.

AREAS OF EASTERN ORTHODOXY I FIND LACKING

THE CANON

As we have seen, most of our debate has been spent hashing out canonicity. Jay made extensive argumentation trying to defend the Apocrypha as part of the canon by giving us alleged quotes from the Apocrypha in the NT, but I think that Steve Hays did an excellent job at Triablogue showing that the great majority of these quotes actually come from the OT. Furthermore, Jay has not established that the Apocrypha deserves its place in the canon for several reasons. I ask my readers to do their research as well on the following facts:

(1) The OT Jewish view was that the Apocrypha was NOT canonical.

(2) The Apocrypha has several historical errors, as many scholars have attested.

(3) Several of the early church fathers, especially Athanasius, disagreed as to the extent even of the Apocrypha.

(4) Which books of the Apocrypha should we accept? Again, Russian Orthodoxy has more than other brands of Orthodoxy, so which is it?

(5) Even if, for the sake of argument, we grant that NT quotes are from the Apocrypha itself, how does that lead to the fact that the Apocrypha is canonical? Again, even pagan poets are quoted in Acts, but all would agree that the pagan poets were not inspired.

(6) The Apocrypha has been called the “deutero-canon”, which means “secondary canon.” Even the name itself shows that it does not hold the same weight of canonicity at least.
The above reasons give us plenty of evidence that the Apocrypha should not be considered canonical.

THE EASTERN ORTHODOX REJECTION OF THE FILIOQUE

We did not touch on this in our debate, but the Eastern Orthodox have a different view of the eternal procession of the Spirit. The West says that the Spirit proceeds from both the Father AND the Son (filioque), while the East says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. Historically this was not the case. Not only does this run into problems when we speak of the ontological order of the Trinity (1st Person, 2nd Person, 3rd Person: if the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, then how can we say that the Spirit is the 3rd Person of the Trinity? Why not the 2nd Person? How do we distinguish between the Son and the Spirit?), but even the Eastern Church itself before the 8th century did not believe this. They spoke of the Spirit proceeding from the Father, but not the Father alone. They also spoke of the Spirit proceeding from the Father through the Son, as the West has always believed. For example, this from a helpful website:

First, the Greek Fathers enumerate the Divine Persons in the same order as the Latin Fathers; they admit that the Son and the Holy Ghost are logically and ontologically connected in the same way as the Son and Father [St. Basil, Ep. cxxv; Ep. xxxviii (alias xliii) ad Gregor. fratrem; "Adv.Eunom.", I, xx, III, sub init.]

Second, the Greek Fathers establish the same relation between the Son and the Holy Ghost as between the Father and the Son; as the Father is the fountain of the Son, so is the Son the fountain of the Holy Ghost (Athanasius, Ep. ad Serap. I, xix, sqq.; "De Incarn.", ix; Orat. iii, adv. Arian., 24; Basil, "Adv. Eunom.", v, in P.G.., XXIX, 731; cf. Greg. Naz., Orat. xliii, 9).

Third, passages are not wanting in the writings of the Greek Fathers in which the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son is clearly maintained: Greg. Thaumat., "Expos. fidei sec.", vers. saec. IV, in Rufius, Hist. Eccl., VII, xxv; Epiphanius, Haer., c. lxii, 4; Greg. Nyss. Hom. iii in orat. domin.); Cyril of Alexandria, "Thes.", ass. xxxiv; the second canon of synod of forty bishops held in 410 at Seleucia in Mesopotamia; the Arabic versions of the Canons of St. Hippolytus; the Nestorian explanation of the Symbol.

Now, to be sure, many Orthodox nowadays are seeing this as a tempest in a teapot, but my discussions with Jay over the phone demonstrate that Jay views it differently. For a helpful discussion on this, see Timothy Ware’s The Orthodox Church, in which he speaks of the perspectives of the Orthodox “doves” (who find this as a tempest in a teapot) and the Orthodox “hawks” (like Vladimir Lossky).

EASTERN ORTHODOX PICKING-AND-CHOOSING OF THE FATHERS' STATEMENTS

One thing which I find incredible is how the Eastern Orthodox always talk about the “Fathers” of the church, but then they pick and choose from the Fathers what they want to believe. This is not a problem for Protestants, because we are clear that what ultimately matters is what Scripture says (sola Scriptura). But this is indeed a problem for the Orthodox, because they lay so much weight on patristics. Jay mentioned in his response to my cross-examination question about the Fathers and the Papacy that there were not any quotes from the Fathers about universal jurisdiction of the Papacy. Jay said, “simply put, there are none.”

Well, I now submit as evidence to the court the following quotes from Eastern, yes Eastern, Fathers on the universal jurisdiction of the Papacy:

St. John Cassian, Monk:

That great man, the disciple of disciples, that master among masters, who wielding the government of the Roman Church possessed the principle authority in faith and in priesthood. Tell us, therefore, we beg of you, Peter, prince of Apostles, tell us how the Churches must believe in God (Cassian, Contra Nestorium, III, 12, CSEL, vol. 17, p. 276).

St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem:

Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy. (Sophronius,[quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council], Mansi, x., 893)

Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine:

[addressed to Pope Martin I]And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, according to holy David, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair [the Chair of Peter at Rome] which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church; for 'Peter,' saith He, 'lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.' And again, because he had in a manner peculiar and special, a faith in the Lord stronger than all and unchangeable, to be converted and to confirm his fellows and spiritual brethren when tossed about, as having been adorned by God Himself incarnate for us with power and sacerdotal authority .....And Sophronius of blessed memory, who was Patriarch of the holy city of Christ our God, and under whom I was bishop, conferring not with flesh and blood, but caring only for the things of Christ with respect to your Holiness, hastened to send my nothingness without delay about this matter alone to this Apostolic see, where are the foundations of holy doctrine. (Mansi, x., 893)

Sergius, Metropolitain of Cyprus:

[ Writing to Pope Theodore ]O Holy Head, Christ our God hath destined thy Apostolic See to be an immovable foundation and a pillar of the Faith. For thou art, as the Divine Word truly saith, Peter, and on thee as a foundation-stone have the pillars of the Church been fixed. (Sergius Ep. ad Theod. lecta in Sess. ii. Concil. Lat. anno 649)

St. Maximus the Confessor:

The extremities of the earth, and everyone in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the Most Holy Roman Church and her confession and faith, as to a sun of unfailing light awaiting from her the brilliant radiance of the sacred dogmas of our Fathers, according to that which the inspired and holy Councils have stainlessly and piously decreed. For, from the descent of the Incarnate Word amongst us, all the churches in every part of the world have held the greatest Church alone to be their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell will never prevail against her, that she has the keys of the orthodox confession and right faith in Him, that she opens the true and exclusive religion to such men as approach with piety, and she shuts up and locks every heretical mouth which speaks against the Most High. (Maximus, Opuscula theologica et polemica, Migne, Patr. Graec. vol. 90)
How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? ... And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers [the popes] are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome. (Maximus, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10)
If the Roman See recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus also anathematizes the See of Rome, that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he is in communion with the Roman See and the Catholic Church of God ...Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to persuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and supreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world. (Maximus, Letter to Peter, in Mansi x, 692).

John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople:

The Pope of Rome, the head of the Christian priesthood, whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren. (John VI, Epist. ad Constantin. Pap. ad. Combefis, Auctuar. Bibl. P.P. Graec.tom. ii. p. 211, seq.)

St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople:

Without whom [the Romans presiding in the seventh Council] a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they [the Popes of Rome] who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles. (Nicephorus, Niceph. Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25 [Mai N. Bibl. pp. ii. 30]).
St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople:

[ Writing to Pope Leo III ]Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven. (Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)
[ Writing to Pope Paschal ]Hear, O Apostolic Head, divinely-appointed Shepherd of Christ's sheep, keybearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, Rock of the Faith upon whom the Catholic Church is built. For Peter art thou, who adornest and governest the Chair of Peter. Hither, then, from the West, imitator of Christ, arise and repel not for ever (Ps. 43:23/44:23). To thee spake Christ our Lord: 'And thou being one day converted, shalt strengthen thy brethren.' Behold the hour and the place. Help us, thou that art set by God for this. Stretch forth thy hand so far as thou canst. Thou hast strength with God, through being the first of all. (Letter of St. Theodore and four other Abbots to Pope Paschal, Bk. ii Ep. 12, Patr. Graec. 99, 1152-3)
[ Writing to Emperor Michael ]Order that the declaration from old Rome be received, as was the custom by Tradition of our Fathers from of old and from the beginning. For this, O Emperor, is the highest of the Churches of God, in which first Peter held the Chair, to whom the Lord said: Thou art Peter ...and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Theodore, Bk. II. Ep. 86)
I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Supreme See [Rome], in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal [Pope St. Paschal I] rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter. (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).
In truth we have seen that a manifest successor of the prince of the Apostles presides over the Roman Church. We truly believe that Christ has not deserted the Church here [Constantinople], for assistance from you has been our one and only aid from of old and from the beginning by the providence of God in the critical times. You are, indeed the untroubled and pure fount of orthodoxy from the beginning, you the calm harbor of the whole Church, far removed from the waves of heresy, you the God-chosen city of refuge. (Letter of St. Theodor & Four Abbots to Pope Paschal).

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Patriarch (363)

Our Lord Jesus Christ then became a man, but by the many He was not known. But wishing to teach that which was not known, having assembled the disciples, He asked, 'Whom do men say that the Son of man is?' ...And all being silent (for it was beyond man to learn) Peter, the Foremost of the Apostles, the Chief Herald of the Church, not using the language of his own finding, nor persuaded by human reasoning, but having his mind enlightened by the Father, says to Him, 'Thou art the Christ,' not simply that, but 'the Son of the living God.' (Cyril, Catech. xi. n. 3) For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven. (Cyril, Catechetical Lectures A.D. 350).Peter, the chief and foremost leader of the Apostles, before a little maid thrice denied the Lord, but moved to penitence, he wept bitterly. (Cyril, Catech ii. n. 15) In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, also the foremost of the Apostles and the key-bearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, healed Aeneas the paralytic in the name of Christ. (Cyril, Catech. xviii. n. 27)

St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople (c. 387)

Peter himself the Head or Crown of the Apostles, the First in the Church, the Friend of Christ, who received a revelation, not from man, but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying, 'Blessed art thou, This very Peter and when I name Peter I name that unbroken Rock, that firm Foundation, the Great Apostle, First of the disciples, the First called, and the First who obeyed he was guilty ...even denying the Lord." (Chrysostom, T. ii. Hom) Peter, the Leader of the choir of Apostles, the Mouth of the disciples, the Pillar of the Church, the Buttress of the faith, the Foundation of the confession, the Fisherman of the universe. (Chrysostom, T. iii Hom). Peter, that Leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church. (Chrys. In illud hoc Scitote) (Peter), the foundation of the Church, the Coryphaeus of the choir of the Apostles, the vehement lover of Christ ...he who ran throughout the whole world, who fished the whole world; this holy Coryphaeus of the blessed choir; the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world. (De Eleemos, iii. 4; Hom. de decem mille tal. 3) In those days Peter rose up in the midst of the disciples (Acts 15), both as being ardent, and as intrusted by Christ with the flock ...he first acts with authority in the matter, as having all put into his hands ; for to him Christ said, 'And thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren. (Chrysostom, Hom. iii Act Apost. tom. ix.) He passed over his fall, and appointed him first of the Apostles; wherefore He said: ' 'Simon, Simon,' etc. (in Ps. cxxix. 2). God allowed him to fall, because He meant to make him ruler over the whole world, that, remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who should slip in the future. And that what I have said is no guess, listen to Christ Himself saying: 'Simon, Simon, etc.' (Chrys, Hom. quod frequenter conveniendum sit 5, cf. Hom 73 in Joan 5).And why, then, passing by the others, does He converse with Peter on these things? (John 21:15). He was the chosen one of the Apostles, and the mouth of the disciples, and the leader of the choir. On this account, Paul also went up on a time to see him rather than the others (Galatians 1:18). And withal, to show him that he must thenceforward have confidence, as the denial was done away with, He puts into his hands the presidency over the brethren. And He brings not forward the denial, nor reproches him with what had past, but says, 'If you love me, preside over the brethren ...and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, 'How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,' this I would answer that He appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world. (Chrysostom, In Joan. Hom. 1xxxviii. n. 1, tom. viii)

St. Proclus, Patriarch of Constantinople (434): A disciple of St. John Chrysostom

Peter, the coryphaeus of the disciples, and the one set over (or chief of) the Apostles. Art not thou he that didst say, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God'? Thou Bar-Jonas (son of the dove) hast thou seen so many miracles, and art thou still but Simon (a hearer)? He appointed thee the key-bearer of Heaven, and has though not yet layed aside thy fisherman's clothing? (Proclus, Or. viii In Dom. Transfig. t. ix. Galland)

St. Nilus of Constantinople (448) A disciple of St. John Chrysostom

Peter, Head of the choir of Apostles. (Nilus, Lib. ii Epistl.) Peter, who was foremost in the choir of Apostles and always ruled amongst them. (Nilus, Tract. ad. Magnam.)

Macedonius, Patriarch of Constantinople (466-516)

Macedonius declared, when desired by the Emperor Anastasius to condemn the Council of Chalcedon, that 'such a step without an Ecumenical Synod presided over by the Pope of Rome is impossible.' (Macedonius, Patr. Graec. 108: 360a (Theophan. Chronogr. pp. 234-346 seq.)

Emperor Justinian (520-533)

Writing to the Pope:Yielding honor to the Apostolic See and to Your Holiness, and honoring your Holiness, as one ought to honor a father, we have hastened to subject all the priests of the whole Eastern district, and to unite them to the See of your Holiness, for we do not allow of any point, however manifest and indisputable it be, which relates to the state of the Churches, not being brought to the cognizance of your Holiness, since you are the Head of all the holy Churches. (Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1). Let your Apostleship show that you have worthily succeeded to the Apostle Peter, since the Lord will work through you, as Surpreme Pastor, the salvation of all. (Coll. Avell. Ep. 196, July 9th, 520, Justinian to Pope Hormisdas).

St. Peter, Bishop of Alexandria (306-311) Head of the catechetical school in Alexandria, he became bishop around A.D. 300, reigning for about eleven years, and dying a martyr's death.

Peter, set above the Apostles. (Peter of Alexandria, Canon. ix, Galland, iv. p. 98)

St. Anthony of Egypt (330)

Peter, the Prince of the Apostles (Anthony, Epist. xvii. Galland, iv p. 687)

St. Athanasius (362)

Rome is called the Apostolic throne. (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35)The Chief, Peter. (Athan, In Ps. xv. 8, tom. iii. p. 106, Migne)

St. Macarius of Egypt (371)

The Chief, Peter. (Macarius, De Patientia, n. 3, p. 180) Moses was succeeded by Peter, who had committed to his hands the new Church of Christ, and the true priesthood. (Macarius, Hom. xxvi. n. 23, p. 101)

St. Cyril of Alexandria (c. 424)

He suffers him no longer to be called Simon, exercising authority and rule over him already having become His own. By a title suitable to the thing, He changed his name into Peter, from the word 'petra' (rock); for on him He was afterwards to found His Church. (Cyril, T. iv. Comm. in Joan., p. 131)He (Christ) promises to found the Church, assigning immovableness to it, as He is the Lord of strength, and over this He sets Peter as shepherd. (Cyril, Comm. on Matt., ad loc.) Therefore, when the Lord had hinted at the disciple's denial in the words that He used, 'I have prayed for thee that thy faith not fail,' He at once introduced a word of consolation, and said (to Peter): 'And do thou, when once thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.' That is, 'Be thou a support and a teacher of those who through faith come to me.' Again, marvel also at the insight of that saying and at the completeness of the Divine gentleness of spirit. For so that He should not reduce the disciple to despair at the thought that after his denial he would have to be debarred from the glorious distinction of being an Apostle, He fills him with good hope, that he will attain the good things promised. ...O loving kindness! The sin was not yet committed, and He already extends His pardon and sets him (Peter) again in his Apostolic office. (Cyril Comm. on Luke's Gospel) For the wonderous Peter, overcome by uncontrollable fear, denied the Lord three times. Christ heals the error done, and demands in various ways the threefold confession ... For although all the holy disciples fled, ...still Peter's fault in the threefold denial was in addition, special and peculiar to himself. Therefore, by the threefold confession of blessed Peter, the fault of the triple denial was done away. Further, by the Lord's saying, Feed my lambs, we must understand a renewal as it were of the Apostleship already given to him, washing away the intervening disgrace of his fall, and the littleness of human infirmity. (Cyril, Comm. on John's Gospel). They (the Apostles) strove to learn through one, that preeminent one, Peter. (Cyril, Ib. 1. ix. p. 736). And even blessed Peter, though set over the holy disciples, says 'Lord, be it far from Thee, this shall be done to Thee. (Cyril, Ibid. 924). If Peter himself, that prince of the holy disciples, was, upon an occassion, scandalized, so as suddenly to exclaim, 'Lord, be it far from Thee,' what wonder that the tender mind of woman should be carried away? (Cyril, Ibid, p. 1064) That the Spirit is God we shall also learn hence. That the prince of the Apostles, to whom 'flesh and blood,' as the Savior says, 'did not reveal' the Divine mystery, says to Ananias, 'Why hath Satan tempted thy heart, (Cyril, T. v. Par. 1. Thesaur. p. 340) Besides all these, let there come forward that leader of the holy disciples, Peter, who, when the Lord, on a certain occassion, asked him, 'Whom do men say that the Son of man is?' instantly cried out, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' (Cyril, T. v. P.2, Hom. viii. De Fest. Pasch. p. 105) 'If I wash thee not, thou shalt have no part with me.' When the Coryphaeus (Peter) had heard these words, he began to change. (Cyril, Ib. Hom.) This bold man (Julian), besides all this, cavils at Peter, the chosen one of the holy Apostles. (Cyril, T. vi.l. ix. Contr. Julian. p. 325).

Eulogius of Alexandria (581)Born in Syria, he became the abbot of the Mother of God monastery at Antioch. In 579, he was made Patriarch of Alexandria; and became an associate of St. Gregory the Great while visiting Constantinople. Much of their subsequent correspondence is still extant.

Neither to John, nor to any other of the disciples, did our Savior say, 'I will give to thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven,' but only to Peter. (Eulogius, Lib. ii. Cont. Novatian. ap. Photium, Biblioth, cod. 280)

Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in Syria (450)A native of Antioch, Theodoret ruled under the Antiochean Patriarch.

The great foundation of the Church was shaken, and confirmed by the Divine grace. And the Lord commanded him to apply that same care to the brethren. 'And thou,' He says, 'converted, confirm thy brethren.' (Theodoret, Tom. iv. Haeret. Fab. lib. v.c. 28) 'For as I,' He says, 'did not despise thee when tossed, so be thou a support to thy brethren in trouble, and the help by which thou was saved do thou thyself impart to others, and exhort them not while they are tottering, but raise them up in their peril. For this reason I suffer thee also to slip, but do not permit thee to fall, thus through thee gaining steadfastness for those who are tossed.' So this great pillar supported the tossing and sinking world, and permitted it not to fall entirely and gave it back stability, having been ordered to feed God's sheep. (Theodoret, Oratio de Caritate in J. P. Minge, ed., Partrologiae Curses Completus: Series Graeca).I therefore beseech your holiness to persuade the most holy and blessed bishop (Pope Leo) to use his Apostolic power, and to order me to hasten to your Council. For that most holy throne (Rome) has the sovereignty over the churches throughout the universe on many grounds. (Theodoret, Tom. iv. Epist. cxvi. Renato, p. 1197). If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Spirit, hastened to the great Peter, to convey from him the solution to those in Antioch, who were at issue about living under the law, how much more do we, poor and humble, run to the Apostolic Throne (Rome) to receive from you (Pope Leo) healing for wounds of the the Churches. For it pertains to you to have primacy in all things; for your throne is adorned with many prerogatives. (Theodoret Ibid, Epistle Leoni)

St. Epiphanius, Archbishop of Salamis (385)

Holy men are therefore called the temple of God, because the Holy Spirit dwells in them; as that Chief of the Apostles testifies, he that was found to be blessed by the Lord, because the Father had revealed unto him. To him then did the Father reveal His true Son; and the same (Peter) furthermore reveals the Holy Spirit. This was befitting in the First of the Apostles, that firm Rock upon which the Church of God is built, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The gates of hell are heretics and heresiarchs. For in every way was the faith confirmed in him who received the keys of heaven; who looses on earth and binds in heaven. For in him are found all subtle questions of faith. He was aided by the Father so as to be (or lay) the Foundation of the security (firmness) of the faith. He (Peter) heard from the same God, 'feed my lambs'; to him He entrusted the flock; he leads the way admirably in the power of his own Master. (Epiphanius, T. ii. in Anchor).

Sergius, Metropolitain of Cyprus (649)

Writing to Pope Theodore:O Holy Head, Christ our God hath destined thy Apostolic See to be an immovable foundation and a pillar of the Faith. For thou art, as the Divine Word truly saith, Peter, and on thee as a foundation-stone have the pillars of the Church been fixed. (Sergius Ep. ad Theod. lecta in Sess. ii. Concil. Lat. anno 649)
_________________________________________
The reader can see very clearly from the above quotes that Jay Dyer has not done his homework on the Church Fathers. As a Protestant, I reject the Pope because the concept is nowhere in the Bible. The Fathers held to it because they did not want to follow the Scriptural pattern of church government being a plurality of elders for each local church, all with equal authority. They got away from the biblical pattern by speaking of one bishop per local church. This became centralized in Rome, but the East could never develop this concept historically because the various centers in the East could never centralize. But Jay has a major problem because he wants to appeal to the Fathers so much as part of the Eastern Tradition. Well Jay, I have news for you: If you want to appeal to the Tradition of the Fathers, you’re going to have to become a Catholic.

THE EASTERN ORTHODOX VIEW OF MARY

The worship of Mary and the saints did not come up in our debate either. I know that I am already causing Orthodox readers to cry out, “But we don’t worship Mary or the saints!”. However, this has indeed been a major problem for both Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Although Catholicism and Orthodoxy are different, this probably explains why many Protestants view them as two sides of the same coin.

Again, let the reader judge whether Orthodoxy doesn’t worship Mary by the following quotes from some of their akathist hymns:

"Rejoice, Protection of the world"
"Tree of delectable Fruit that nourishes the faithful"
"Forgiveness for many transgressors"
"Bestower of divine goodness"
"You who wash away the stain of sin"
"Rejoice, Healing of my flesh. Rejoice, Salvation of my soul"
"Unto you, O Theotokos, invincible Champion, your City, in thanksgiving ascribes the victory for the deliverance from sufferings."
"Distressed by many temptations, I flee to thee, seeking salvation"
"I implore thee who gavest birth to the Saviour and God, O Virgin, to deliver me from perils"
"Thou alone art the protectress of the afflicted"
"O Virgin, help me! For I know thee to be the inexhaustible, unfailing treasury of healings, O all-blameless one."
"Having thee, O all-hymned one, as our hope and support and unshakable wall of salvation"
"We have thee as a wall of refuge and the perfect salvation of our souls and release from our afflictions, O Maiden, and we ever rejoice in thy light."
"but as thou art one with might which is invincible, from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us”
____________
The above quotes indeed demonstrate to me that the suspicions of Protestants towards both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are indeed true: the Orthodox and the Catholics do indeed commit idolatry when it comes to the cults of the saints. Only Jesus Christ deserves the titles given above.

THE EASTERN ORTHODOX VIEW OF THE ECUMENICAL COUNCILS

This has been one of the kickers for me. I have met some people on my blog who have flirted with Orthodoxy or who are becoming Orthodox. Many of them came from a Reformed background. The attraction for them is that they think they are joining something that is centuries old, something that is “changeless.” However, Orthodoxy has indeed changed.
One council that by all measures was ecumenical, as we have seen, declared iconoclasm the official position of the church and declared the iconodules heretical. However, later this was repudiated. Now Orthodoxy is iconodule.

The Orthodox used to say that bishops from all areas should be present to make a council ecumenical, as opposed to just local councils. But they recognized this as problematic, so they now opt for the idea of what the “whole church” accepts.

But, as Timothy Ware even readily admits, the “whole church acceptance” idea is extremely problematic. Certainly the Coptic Church did not accept the Formula of Chalcedon. In other words, from an inquirer’s standpoint, how would they know whether to turn to the Copts or to the Greeks? On another note, what about the Russians? Orthodoxy shows itself to be a mixture of confusion here. This is not at all acceptable epistemologically.

THE EASTERN ORTHODOX DO NOT EMBRACE THE JURIDICAL CONCEPTS IN SCRIPTURE

Another reason I find Orthodoxy lacking in substance is because the Bible is clear in several places, and this by Jay’s own admittance, that guilt and justification are major concepts in redemption. The Orthodox have this absent from their thought almost entirely, opting instead for theosis and divinization.

ESSENCE/ENERGIES AND THE VIA NEGATIVA

Finally, this was not touched upon, but the Orthodox concept of the attributes of God is nearly absent in its thought because they place such a major emphasis on God being “unknowable” in His essence, but knowable in His uncreated “energies (cataphaticism).” The best way to know Him, they say, is to bask in the face of the unknowable God and use negative statements about Him (apophaticism). However, although we indeed cannot know God in His essence when it comes to His infinity and omnipresence, we can know Him analogically, as Van Til said. Indeed, He reveals Himself to us. The essence/energies distinction and the via negative have major problems epistemologically when it comes to revelation. How do we know of God’s inner life? If God does not reveal to us in any way His essence, Who He is, then how do we know Him? How do we know that what He reveals is consistent with His inner life? Indeed, the essence/energies distinction and the negative way seem to lead to an epistemological agnosticism.

CONCLUSION

We can see from the above that Eastern Orthodoxy is all promises but no fulfillment. I honestly do not understand the attraction that some have to it. Throughout this debate, we have seen and demonstrated the following:

-Eastern Orthodoxy offers a “timeless connection” to the Christian past, and claims to be “changeless,” but it cannot offer a consistent view of what makes a council ecumenical, and cannot tell an inquirer why they should not accept the Coptic church.

-Eastern Orthodoxy cannot agree amongst itself as to the extent of the canon, which certainly is part of Tradition, and certainly is part of God’s revelation of Himself.

-Eastern Orthodoxy tries to have a robust view of the Church Fathers, but having such a view does not help it, because we have seen that the Church Fathers themselves held to the jurisdictional universal primacy of the Papacy, and we have seen that even amongst Eastern Fathers.

-Eastern Orthodoxy leads to an epistemological agnosticism when it comes to their essence/energies distinction, and the via negativa.

-Eastern Orthodoxy cannot tell us why we should hold to their “tradition” but not the Roman Catholic one.

-Eastern Orthodoxy’s defense of itself is ultimately circular. That is, it claims that we should accept its tradition and claims because its tradition and claims are true. Why are they true? On what grounds? Well, because its tradition supposedly never changes. But we saw this as untrue. Besides that, how does that claim lead us from an epistemological claim to a metaphysical proposition of ultimate truth?

-Eastern Orthodoxy rejects the juridical concepts in Scripture, although Scripture is replete with them.

-Eastern Orthodoxy cannot demonstrate that it distinguishes between “worship” and “reverence” of the saints; indeed, we have seen from its own akathist hymns that it uses titles of Mary which rightfully only belong to the only Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
__________________________________
This debate has been a serious one, because this is ultimately about our eternal destiny. Reader, do you trust in Christ alone for your salvation? Do you trust in His righteousness alone, His keeping of the Law and obeying God’s Law? Or do you conflate your works, although you would say they are given to you from Christ?

We have seen that the Orthodox Church is a false church and that it rejects the gospel of our only Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We have demonstrated that it is easily refutable on its own grounds. But ultimately what matters is, whom do you trust for your eternal soul? Do you rest in Christ and His perfect righteousness, or do you bring your filthy works to the table?

I think we can conclude with a section from John Bunyan’s The Pilgrim’s Progress. I see Ignorance as the man who reminds me of many in our day, whether they be Orthodox or Federal Vision or New Perspectives on Paul or Roman Catholic or any other works-righteousness heresies.

From Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress (conversation between Ignorance, Christian, and Hopeful):

Then directing his speech to IGNORANCE, he said, "Come, how do you? how stands it between God and your soul now?"Ign. I hope well; for I am always full of good motions, that come into my mind to comfort me as I walk.Chr. What good motions? Pray tell us.Ign. Why, I think of God and heaven.Chr. So do the devils and damned souls.Ign. But I think of them, and desire them.Chr. So do many that are never like to come there; the soul of the sluggard desires, and hath nothing.
"The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat." Proverbs 13:4
Ign. But I think of them, and leave all for them.Chr. That I doubt, for leaving of all is a hard matter; yea, a harder matter than many are aware of. But why, or by what, art thou persuaded that thou hast left all for God and heaven?Ign. My heart tells me so.Chr. The wise man says, "He that trusts his own heart is a fool".
"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered." Proverbs 28:26
Ign. This is spoken of an evil heart; but mine is a good one.Chr. But how dost thou prove that?Ign. It comforts me in the hopes of heaven.Chr. That may be through its deceitfulness; for a man's heart may minister comfort to him in the hopes of that thing for which he yet has no ground to hope.Ign. But my heart and life agree together; and therefore my hope is well grounded.Chr. Who told thee that thy heart and life agree together?Ign. My heart tells me so.Chr. "Ask my fellow if I be a thief." Thy heart tells thee so! Except the Word of God bears witness in this matter, other testimony is of no value.Ign. But is it not a good heart that has good thoughts? and is not a good life one that is according to God's commandments?Chr. Yes, that is a good heart that hath good thoughts; and that is a good life that is according to God's commandments: but it is one thing indeed to have these, and another thing only to think so.Ign. Pray, what count you good thoughts, and a life according to God's commandments?Chr. There are good thoughts of divers kinds: some respecting ourselves, some God, some Christ, and some other things.Ign. What be good thoughts respecting ourselves?Chr. Such as agree with the Word of God.Ign. When do our thoughts of ourselves agree with the Word of God?Chr. When we pass the same judgment upon ourselves which the Word passes. To explain myself: the Word of God saith of persons in a natural condition, "There is none righteous, there is none that doth good." It saith also, "That every imagination of the heart of man is only evil, and that continually".
"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes." Romans 3:9-18"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Genesis 6:5
And again, "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth." Now then, when we think thus of ourselves, having sense thereof, then are our thoughts good ones, because they are according to the Word of God.Ign. I will never believe that my heart is thus bad.Chr. Therefore thou never hadst one good thought concerning thyself in thy life. But let me go on. As the Word passes a judgment upon our heart, so it passes a judgment upon our ways: and when our thoughts of our hearts and ways agree with the judgment which the Word gives of both, then are both good, because agreeing thereto.Ign. Make out your meaning.Chr. Why, the Word of God saith, that man's ways are crooked ways; not good, but perverse. It saith, they are naturally out of the good way, that they have not known it.
"As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways, the LORD shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity: but peace shall be upon Israel." Psalms 125:5"Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths:" Proverbs 2:15"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes." Romans 3:9-18
Now, when a man thus thinks of his ways--I say, when he doth sensibly and with heart humiliation thus think, then hath he good thoughts of his own ways because his thoughts now agree with the judgment of the Word of God.Ign. What are good thoughts concerning God?Chr. Even (as I have said concerning ourselves) when our thoughts of God do agree with what the Word saith of him; and that is when we think of his being and attributes as the Word hath taught, of which I cannot now discourse at large. But to speak of him with reference to us: then we have right thoughts of God when we think that he knows us better than we know ourselves, and can see sin in us when and where we can see none in ourselves; when we think he knows our inmost thoughts, and that our heart with all its depths is always open unto his eyes; also, when we think that all our righteousness stinks in his nostrils, and that therefore he cannot abide to see us stand before him in any confidence even of all our best performances.Ign. Do you think that I am such a fool as to think God can see no further than I? or that I would come to God in the best of my performances?Chr. Why, how dost thou think in this matter?Ign. Why, to be short, I think I must believe in Christ for justification.Chr. How think thou must believe in Christ, when thou seest not thy need of him! Thou neither seest thy original nor actual infirmities; but hast such an opinion of thyself and of what thou doest, as plainly renders thee to be one that did never see a necessity of Christ's personal righteousness to justify thee before God. How then dost thou say, "I believe in Christ?"Ign. I believe well enough for all that.Chr. How dost thou believe?Ign. I believe that Christ died for sinners; and that I shall be justified before God from the curse, through his gracious acceptance of my obedience to his law; or thus, Christ makes my duties that are religious acceptable to his Father by virtue of his merits, and so shall I be justified.Chr. Let me give an answer to this confession of thy faith:
1. Thou believest with a fantastical faith; for this faith is nowhere described in the Word.2. Thou believest with a false faith; because it taketh justification from the personal righteousness of Christ, and applies it to thy own.3. This faith makes not Christ a justifier of thy person, but of thy actions; and of thy person for thy actions' sake, which is false.4. Therefore this faith is deceitful, even such as will leave thee under wrath in the day of God Almighty; for true justifying faith puts the soul (as sensible of its lost condition by the law) upon flying for refuge unto Christ's righteousness--which righteousness of his is not an act of grace by which he makes for justification thy obedience accepted with God; but his personal obedience to the law in doing and suffering for us what that required at our hands. This righteousness, I say, true faith accepts; under the skirt of which, the soul being shrouded, and by it presented as spotless before God, it is accepted, and acquitted from condemnation.
Ign. What! would you have us trust to what Christ in his own person has done without us? This conceit would loosen the reins of our lust, and tolerate us to live as we list; for what matter how we live, if we may be justified by Christ's personal righteousness from all, when we believe it?Chr. IGNORANCE is thy name; and as thy name is, so art thou: even this thy answer demonstrateth what I say. Ignorant thou art of what justifying righteousness is; and as ignorant how to secure thy soul, through the faith of it, from the heavy wrath of God. Yea, thou also art ignorant of the true effects of saving faith in this righteousness of Christ: which is, to bow and win over the heart to God in Christ, to love his name, his Word, ways, and people; and not as thou ignorantly imaginest.Hope. Ask him if ever he had Christ revealed to him from heaven.Ign. What! you are a man for revelations! I do believe that what both you and all the rest of you say about that matter is but the fruit of distracted brains.Hope. Why, man, Christ is so hid in God from the natural apprehensions of the flesh, that he cannot by any man be savingly known, unless God the Father reveals him to them.Ign. That is your faith, but not mine: yet mine, I doubt not, is as good as yours, though I have not in my head so many whimsies as you.Chr. Give me leave to put in a word. You ought not so slightly to speak of this matter; for this I will boldly affirm (even as my good companion hath done), that no man can know Jesus Christ but by the revelation of the Father; yea, and faith too, by which the soul lays hold upon Christ (if it be right), must be wrought by the exceeding greatness of his mighty power;
"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matthew 11:27"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:3"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power" Ephesians 1:18
the working of which faith, I perceive, poor IGNORANCE, thou art ignorant of. Be awakened, then, see thine own wretchedness, and fly to the Lord Jesus; and by his righteousness, which is the righteousness of God (for He himself is God), thou shalt be delivered from condemnation.Ign. You go so fast, I cannot keep pace with you. Do you go on before; I must stay awhile behind.Then they said:
"Well, IGNORANCE, Wilt thou yet foolish be,To slight good counsel ten times given thee?And if thou yet refuse it, thou shalt knowEre long the evil of thy doing so.Remember, man, in time; stoop, do no fear:Good counsel taken well, saves; therefore hearBut if thou yet shalt slight it, thou wilt beThe loser, IGNORANCE, I'll warrant thee."
_______________________________
It is the gospel of free and sovereign grace in all its simplicity and all of its glory to God through which God saves. It is the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox who say “What do you mean we are saved freely? Surely this would loosen our lusts!”

It is this gospel which Paul answers this charge of in Romans 6.

It is this gospel which is the good news. Flee to Christ and His righteousness, and repent of your own works, all you who practice the filthy rags of self-righteousness! Admit your wretchedness and bow the knee to Christ. Ask Him to give you His righteousness.

In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

7 comments:

orthodox said...

Here we have the odd spectacle of a protestant lecturing on the historicity of papal primacy.

Here's an example of the problem: John Chrysostom spent 3/4 of his church life out of communion with Rome, but this quote about Peter is supposed to prove something? Could it be you are overstepping the mark Josh?

A plurality of elders for each local church, all with equal authority? That's not in the bible. Was not James the chief of the church in Jerusalem during the council?


The OT Jewish view was that the Apocrypha was NOT canonical.

There are no "OT" Jews who list the canon. End of story.

(2) The Apocrypha has several historical errors, as many scholars have attested.

As does the Masoretic text of the bible.

Several of the early church fathers, especially Athanasius, disagreed as to the extent even of the Apocrypha.

Disagreement does not give YOU a canon.

(4) Which books of the Apocrypha should we accept? Again, Russian Orthodoxy has more than other brands of Orthodoxy, so which is it?

Canon is an agreed standard. Clearly that which is agreed is the canon.

(5) Even if, for the sake of argument, we grant that NT quotes are from the Apocrypha itself, how does that lead to the fact that the Apocrypha is canonical? Again, even pagan poets are quoted in Acts, but all would agree that the pagan poets were not inspired.

Look at the nature of the quotes and whether they are comparable to quoting pagan poets.

But if you ignore all quotes in the NT, and restrict yourself to "it is written", how small will your OT canon get?

The Apocrypha has been called the “deutero-canon”, which means “secondary canon.” Even the name itself shows that it does not hold the same weight of canonicity at least.

For that reason, I don't call it that.

Again, let the reader judge whether Orthodoxy doesn’t worship Mary by the following quotes from some of their akathist hymns:

So your position is that people don't even KNOW who they worship? How odd.

One council that by all measures was ecumenical, as we have seen, declared iconoclasm the official position of the church and declared the iconodules heretical.

How can you presume to lecture us on what is an ecumenical council?

The Orthodox used to say that bishops from all areas should be present to make a council ecumenical, as opposed to just local councils. But they recognized this as problematic, so they now opt for the idea of what the “whole church” accepts.

Oh yes, WHEN did the Orthodox say this? Considering there were no western bishops at the 2nd council, clearly your assertion is quite odd.

But, as Timothy Ware even readily admits, the “whole church acceptance” idea is extremely problematic. Certainly the Coptic Church did not accept the Formula of Chalcedon. In other words, from an inquirer’s standpoint, how would they know whether to turn to the Copts or to the Greeks? On another note, what about the Russians?

1) What is the difference between Greeks and Russians?

2) Have you read the Vincentian canon?

The Orthodox have this absent from their thought almost entirely, opting instead for theosis and divinization.


No we don't. You are mistaken.

How do we know of God’s inner life? If God does not reveal to us in any way His essence, Who He is, then how do we know Him?

Nobody said you can't know anything positive about God. That's a distortion. What Orthodox say is that we can better understand the full glory of God's infinity by realising the limitations of our own positive comprehension.

We have seen that the Orthodox Church is a false church and that it rejects the gospel of our only Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

How did we end up HERE? Where were these things shown?

Do you rest in Christ and His perfect righteousness, or do you bring your filthy works to the table?

And you allege that Orthodox "bring filthy works to the table"??? WIll you document this?

Saint and Sinner said...

"A plurality of elders for each local church, all with equal authority? That's not in the bible."

It most certainly is (witness: the Roman Church up until the mid-second century). Presbyterians and Baptists who hold to a multiplicity of elders have made the case for this view over and over again. The term presbyter and episcopos in the New Testament are used interchangeably.

"There are no "OT" Jews who list the canon. End of story."

We've been going through this here:
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/03/orthoducks-hunting.html

"As does the Masoretic text of the bible."

That confounds the urtext with the originals. The apocrypha has multiple historical anachronisms such as Wisdom being attributed to Solomon even though it uses Platonic philosophy.

"Disagreement does not give YOU a canon."

For the 10,000th time, Protestants don't use the church fathers as sacred tradition, but rather, we weigh their testimony as historical witnesses. Secondly, we also use pagan and heretical sources (such as Tatian's Diatesseron). Thirdly, we utilize internal evidence for our canon as well.

"Canon is an agreed standard. Clearly that which is agreed is the canon."

But they don't agree. Some accept the deuteros and some don't.

"Look at the nature of the quotes and whether they are comparable to quoting pagan poets."

Steve has already been over this several times on T-blogue.

"But if you ignore all quotes in the NT, and restrict yourself to "it is written", how small will your OT canon get?"

Josh was using an internal critique (Dyer's position). That was not his standard.

"How can you presume to lecture us on what is an ecumenical council?"

Again, that was an internal critique which should have been obvious since he quoted Ware.

"So your position is that people don't even KNOW who they worship? How odd."

He is saying that they're prayers amount to worship. Read more carefully.

Saint and Sinner said...

"That confounds the urtext with the originals."

Sorry. That should say "the urtext with the copies".

orthodox said...

SS: The term presbyter and episcopos in the New Testament are used interchangeably.

O: That wouldn't establish equal authority. Witness James in Jerusalem.

SS: "As does the Masoretic text of the bible."

That confounds the urtext with the copies.

O: Since you don't have the autograph of either one, and since both contain errors, you fail to explain the effective difference. If you had the autographs, then you'd have something to talk about.

SS: For the 10,000th time, Protestants don't use the church fathers as sacred tradition, but rather, we weigh their testimony as historical witnesses.

O: Weighing doesn't give you a canon since everybody gives different weights to each piece of evidence.

SS: But they don't agree. Some accept the deuteros and some don't.

O: What IS agreed is canon (standard). What isn't agreed is not.

SS: He is saying that they're prayers amount to worship.

O: But he doesn't tell us where the criteria for worship comes from and relate it back to his evidence.

Saint and Sinner said...

"That wouldn't establish equal authority. Witness James in Jerusalem."

James was a.) an apostle (Gal. 1:19) and b.) was likely the 'first among equals' (but more equal being an apostle). Either way, the post-apostolic Church government did not have monarchial episcopates until the time of Ignatius (witness the house churches in Rome).

"Since you don't have the autograph of either one, and since both contain errors, you fail to explain the effective difference. If you had the autographs, then you'd have something to talk about."

This is simplistic. In the case of the Hebrew canon, there is no confirmable error in the urtext since they all have reasonable explanations. In case of the Apocrypha, there are major historical errors and anachronisms that are part of the main text (i.e. the plot-line wouldn't be intelligible without them).


"Weighing doesn't give you a canon since everybody gives different weights to each piece of evidence."

I'd sympathize even more with the victim if you were on the trial jury.

"What IS agreed is canon (standard). What isn't agreed is not."

But that's the point! There isn't an agreement within either the Greek Orthodox Church or the Russian Orthodox Church as to whether the Deuteros are accepted. Repeating your mantra that Orthodoxy is completely agreed upon the extent of the canon doesn't make it so.

"But he doesn't tell us where the criteria for worship comes from and relate it back to his evidence."

The Scriptures are clear that prayer is a form of worship worthy of God alone.

orthodox said...

James was was likely the 'first among equals'

He was first, that is the important thing.

Either way, the post-apostolic Church government did not have monarchial episcopates until the time of Ignatius (witness the house churches in Rome).

Assertions are not an argument.

In the case of the Hebrew canon, there is no confirmable error in the urtext since they all have reasonable explanations.

What "urtext" ?? There are certainly many confirmable errors in the Masoretic text.

There isn't an agreement within either the Greek Orthodox Church or the Russian Orthodox Church as to whether the Deuteros are accepted.

Yes there is. Assertions are not an argument.

The Scriptures are clear that prayer is a form of worship worthy of God alone.

Assertions are not an argument.

Pastor Matt Singleton said...

I nottice that salvation is not so major a concern in this debate.
That is an EPIC fail on your part. You can't discuss the Idea of a true church until you know who is saved. This discussion should be prominent prior to the idea of sacred tradition. RCC and EOC are outgrowths of the pagan emperor Constantine. Neither they nor the councils have any authority over Jesus Christ nor His local church.
New Calvinist are nearly as theologically deep as they imagine themselves. The ability to turn apostate is deep.
So charasmatic young Calvinists get fed this unchecked platonism. So a guy like jay
Wouldn't waste much of his time at Boyce reading baptist theologians. He was reading Presbyterian and Lutherans most of the time. He had already been talking about consubstantiation before his year was up.
Well EOC is more platonic than Calvinism. So he chose that over RCC which is more Aristotelian.
Your defection from baptist theology is an indictment against Calvinism.
You ignored the regulative principle. So while you debate was decent you really were not strongly debating. The problem is that even though jay is a brilliant adversary. You had the almighty Word of God, the sword of the spirit compared to his little man made darts and you still came off a less than effective.
I apologize if that is harsh. The problem is that you can not fight comPromise with less comPromise. It is just not as good .